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61 Replies Last post: Dec 1, 2008 3:38 AM by intechspecial

Trouble for Web Design Companies

Nov 11, 2008 10:25 AM

Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008

I just found this website that allows people to create beautifully designed websites in minutes, with a simple and easy to use drag and drop interface.

Looks like were in trouble.

http://www.wix.com/
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Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
1. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 12, 2008 1:27 PM
This will be the newest competetion for small web design companies that focus on helping small business.

With the changes and advances in web/programming technologies, it won't be long before there are a ton of websites that offers you the small business owner to build a website for next to nothing, with an easy to use interface.

As a small business owner, we must learn to adapt to the industry changes, as well as forsee them to have a chance at success.

Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
2. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 12, 2008 1:32 PM
in response to: intechspecial
To make things more difficult, those that focus their efforts within flash development, and other catchy designs will lose profits with the next generation web allowing anyone with absolutely no knowledge of programming the ability to design a "better then average" website for a small business, for a small monthly fee. Site can and will be updated by the same person.

Suggestion to those in the business of web design for small business:

START FOCUSING YOUR EFFORTS ON MID-SIZE BUSINESS, LARGE BUSINESS, OR CORPORATE ENTITIES. TRY TO FIND OTHER INCOME STREAMS OUTSIDE OF YOU CURRENT MARKET.

Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
3. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 12, 2008 1:36 PM
in response to: intechspecial
If I may be so bold to add a final suggestion.

The internet(obiviously) is moving completey away from a "read only" venue. Interaction is the key for success of any website or busines online.

If your web design business has been successful to this point, and you have the time and money, it is best to try and focus your efforts on buildind on online interactive application, that can enhance or even take over our current way of doing business.

Things are going to change and they are going to change QUICK. Soon their will be little or no need for an HTML web designer for small business.
Click to view ModernGorilla's profile Mogul ModernGorilla 24 posts since
Feb 22, 2008
4. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 13, 2008 10:26 AM
in response to: intechspecial
You're right, we're doomed!

Of course, if you look at web design to be the end-all, be-all, that would be correct. For me it's always just been one component of advertising a small business (and usually the easiest part).
Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
5. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 12:32 AM
in response to: ModernGorilla
Yes Web Design is easy, I agree.

It is a difficult market to break into would you not agree?
Click to view Iwrite's profile Mogul Iwrite 1,101 posts since
Dec 29, 2007
6. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 2:54 AM
in response to: ModernGorilla
I think you hit on the real problem, a lot of small business owners think of web design as the "end all be all." They ignore or don't understand the need to put forth a real message that communicates a benefit for customers. I mean look at the majority of post here that rely on nothing but offering a cheaper price. Instead they could talk about insight and understanding markets, how to reach customers and drive traffic. There is no reason other than price for doing business with them.

What good is a website that people are not actively seeking? And give people a reason to stay on your site! The longer they stay, the more they learn about you and your product the more they tend to buy. And the more often they will return. But who wants return customers?
Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
7. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 8:37 AM
in response to: Iwrite

You bring an an extremely valid point I-Right.

Web design is not the end all and unfortunately to many people get the idea that 'if I have a website, I have a profit", and this sadly is not the case.

A website should be used as your online identity, as a way to validate that you are legitimate. I mean what legitimate business DOES NOT have a website? Could you imagine Bank of America trying to do business without one? What about Joe The Plumber? What type of exposure is he missing?

So their must be an appropriate mix for the two.

The bigger problem is that any valid USA company has the majority of competetion based in India and China.

So imagine if you need a website developed, and the response is "we are a USA based company, here are our benefits". (No mention of price but rates are an average of $90/hour for a top end company)
Orrrrrrrrrr you receive a response like this "we are an India based company, here are our benefits, and we charge $18/hour".(This is a top end company that has more work then the usa based company.


Suddenly, to add to this already cuthroat industry, comes technologies at a much higher level of proficiency then previously that allows any small business owner the ability to easily create a website with absolutely no HTML knowledge, with an easy to use drag and drop interface.

I-Right, if you do not mind me asking, I did not see a website in your profile, do you mind sharing the URL of your site?

Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
8. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 8:49 AM
in response to: Iwrite
To add insult to injury, part of developing a professional website includes great Search Engine Optimization.

I recently heard of an offer from a USA based company that offers SEO at the rate of $149/per month. This company is one of the best in the country, and is currently losing profits and business, and should be refocusing their marketing efforts. If they continue on their current plan, they will fail on all levels eventually.

Why might they fail you ask?

I am glad you asked that question.

They will fail because they are stubborninly and blatelingly are unresponsive to the obvious, and India based company charges the same services, with twice as many features for $29/hour.

Well of course not all USA based companies care to do business with India based company's. So you locate a USA based company to do the work. You will look for a company that offers the best quality and at an appropriate rate. So you do a search for SEO in google, and the first two companies that come happen to be USA based. The first company offers a rate of $149 per month(but of course this rate is hidden until you are sold on the service). The second company offers a rate of $59 per hour, openly displays their rates and offers twice as many services as the first.(They are oustourcing to an India based company unbeknown to you the American based company).
Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
9. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 9:05 AM
in response to: intechspecial

To place the final stamp of approval on my debate, I will add the following:

When have you recently shopped at Wal-Mart, K-mart, of CVS Pharmacy? Did you think about where the plastic they sale comes from?


Have you recently opened the hood of your car? Do you understand that Ford purchases a good percentage of what you see from China? The car might be build in America, but all the parts are made in China.


Do you really understand the cost of any product that is completely American made? Imagine paying $79,000 for a used 2002 Ford Bronco(completely American made including all parts). It runs like a champ, as long as you keep a case of oil in the trunk.

So as a legitimate "web design company" it is not as simple to say "I offer great services that really work".

Hence the need to either drop your prices or find a creative way to do business.

As a final and conclusive argument, I will add this:

Go to http://www.freeits.net and you will find a designer that is an American Based Disabled Volunteer Web Developer.

As I speak I happened to look at the bottom of my coffee mug and it did not say "great quality product", it simply said "Made In China"

Wake up America, as I need some sleep, and will help you in your efforts(or lack their of) later.

Click to view Iwrite's profile Mogul Iwrite 1,101 posts since
Dec 29, 2007
10. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 10:13 AM
in response to: intechspecial
Intech,

No, I don't have a website up. And I am a legitimate company. I made a small piece of change this year, enough to live off. I think the importance of a company's web presence is depended on the type of business you are talking about.

Let's look at your burger example for instance - how many times have you gotten on the web to search for a burger? How important is it to customers of a burger place that the business have a website? Are people going to order burgers over the web? A website for a burger place can help build customer loyalty and encourage trail but is a website as important as great signage and a strong print campaign to the owner of a burger place? The honest answer is no. But still some of us would push having a website as a necessity for doing business when it isn't.

Now back to me. I believe in having a website for my agency, I am having trouble with what I want the website to do. I don't want the traditional show and tell website that most advertising agencies have where they show their work, the people and their cool office space. I want and am trying to build a website that engages folks about advertising, that informs and educates while allowing people to get to know us. I admit it is taking longer than I would like but the finished website will be closer to what I believe a website should be - more than a template filled with samples of work and biographies. I want it to be a conversation on advertising. The hard part is pulling it off well, but that is also the most important part.

I don't think there is going to be trouble for web design companies that understand what it is that they do, and find a clear way to communicate the real benefit of their services. It isn't about pretty designs or SEO strong designs, it is about developing a web presence that invites people in, holds their attention and gives them a reason to buy a product or service. If you can tell business owners that you can do that, then web design companies should not be in trouble.

And now to the small business owners who have or are thinking about having a website, a simple question: If you have a physical presence for your business off-line and customers were coming in and out of it to do business, how much time and money would you invest in designing and decorating your business to make a great impression on customers when they come into your business? And you only want to spend how much time and money to design and build you online business? Just a thought.

Iwrite
Click to view Iwrite's profile Mogul Iwrite 1,101 posts since
Dec 29, 2007
11. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 10:16 AM
in response to: Iwrite
Please excuse the typos!! "Trail" should be "trial." I need another cup of coffee!
Click to view ModernGorilla's profile Mogul ModernGorilla 24 posts since
Feb 22, 2008
12. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 10:25 AM
in response to: intechspecial
Wow, it's pretty black or white in here.

Shades of gray really; a local web designer/developer who can leverage their production overseas is going to do very well. If I can communicate effectively and keep my clients up to date I've done my job.. who cares where the work actually gets done?
Click to view Iwrite's profile Mogul Iwrite 1,101 posts since
Dec 29, 2007
13. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 11:17 AM
in response to: ModernGorilla
I didn't see my response as black or white, more off blue with a hint of yellow splashed in it. (that be my attempt at humor)

I totally missed the comment about where sites are made. I know for a fact that Pepsi and it's brands, Pizza Hut, Coke and its brands, McDonald's, Domino's, and many of the P&G brands are not outsourcing. Dell, just paid billions to build a US advertising agency to handle all of the work including interactive. For me, it is about how you like to work. I enjoy sitting with a designer and an art director and bouncing things off of each other in person. I don't mind working with someone over long distance but I prefer to be in the same location. But that is a personal choice. Different strokes for different folks.
Click to view ModernGorilla's profile Mogul ModernGorilla 24 posts since
Feb 22, 2008
14. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 11:36 AM
in response to: Iwrite
I wasn't referring to your response, more or less just commenting on how web design companies are perceived to be in trouble because of 'cheap labor' overseas.

As you mentioned, many small/local businesses want to sit down with their web designer/marketer and bounce ideas around- that's a natural process. I'm talking about my own business model which provides this.. but also outsources the grunt work whenever possible.
Click to view Iwrite's profile Mogul Iwrite 1,101 posts since
Dec 29, 2007
15. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 11:47 AM
in response to: ModernGorilla
Thanks for the clarification.

I think not having a clear message, other than price, hurts web design companies. Outsourcing has its advantages and drawbacks, but the real problem is the perception that what web design companies do is nothing special is the real problem. Web design like any other design job is first and foremost an art form it requires a level of skill and creativity that doesn't come from a book or a course. The really great designers make it look simple but it isn't.
Click to view ModernGorilla's profile Mogul ModernGorilla 24 posts since
Feb 22, 2008
16. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 12:00 PM
in response to: Iwrite
You're right- I work for a large web design firm and the perception is that anyone can do it- they're just paying us to because they don't want to bother with it (I'm rolling my eyes as I type this). As you mentioned, it is an art form, and one that takes a few years to learn because you're actually designing out a graphical user interface and not merely putting content on a page; leading the eye around and creating an inviting environment takes some skillz. ;)

But either way, I'll skip around that and focus only on what will bring customers through their door. It's not worth arguing that they could 'do it themselves' because there is no way they would understand the scope involved.
Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
17. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 12:10 PM
in response to: Iwrite

You bring up some very valid and interesting points.

Thank you.
Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
18. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 12:12 PM
in response to: Iwrite
No mind the the tipos, I made a mistake in another forum where I mistaked rant and rave for rat and brave.

It happens to the best of us.
Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
19. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 12:15 PM
in response to: intechspecial

In the last post I said tipos when I should of said typos.


I also wanted to define what I had said in more detail.


The forum where the mistake was made, I was commenting on how some people(including me) will rant and rave all the time over stupid things.


I did not want you to confuse this as being that I was saying a rat is brave over stupid things.


I hope this clarifies.

Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
20. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 12:17 PM
in response to: ModernGorilla
ModernGorilla -

Thanks again for the comment, if I might as, where exactly is your portfolio of the work you have done on your site.

Also, I love the design of the site, is that a customized WordPress template?

Thanks again for the feedback.
Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
21. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 12:21 PM
in response to: ModernGorilla
You are correct that it is black(font) and white(background).

I have also noticed that there is an occastional blue(hyperlink) and a few colorful avatars.

This thread is becoming more informative and entertaining by the minute.

Unfortunately it has been "hijacked" and is now off focus.

I am interested if anyone has views on the future market of web design companies.
Click to view ModernGorilla's profile Mogul ModernGorilla 24 posts since
Feb 22, 2008
22. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 12:26 PM
in response to: intechspecial
I've had my hand in a thousand successful designs but I'm not going to use any of them because they aren't in the direction I'm seeking (I don't want to confuse anyone). I'm in the process of creating some new demo sites to show perspective clients and the site right now is really just to get my rankings started.

I designed it myself and it's actually full CSS with no backend.. that'll change in the future, but again, so will a lot of things. ;)
Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
23. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 12:29 PM
in response to: ModernGorilla
Very cool.

I apologize I misunderstood, as I thought you were a well established corporate entity with years of business experience.

Please forgive my misunderstanding.
Click to view Iwrite's profile Mogul Iwrite 1,101 posts since
Dec 29, 2007
24. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 12:33 PM
in response to: intechspecial
I don't think this was hijacked or off focus. We are talking about the future market of web design, just not in the way you were expecting. I am saying that the future should be strong for those who can position themselves as more than a set of extra hands but as a real asset to a business. Once web design firms land on that message it will not matter what new programs or sites pop up.

The key to securing a future for web design companies lies in communicating the relevance they have to the success of a business. The trend for web design is moving towards retention - how long visitors to a site remain on the site and are engaged. Templates cannot delivery that. There is where the future for web design is. The sooner designers get there, the faster they will realize the future.

I think the future for real designers is bright. I think small and medium sized businesses will need to transition their websites to more retention based designs very soon and designers need to be getting ahead of the wave.

How is all of this not talking about the future market of web design companies?
Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
25. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 12:34 PM
in response to: Iwrite
You are actually right, I take that back.

My mistake.
Click to view Iwrite's profile Mogul Iwrite 1,101 posts since
Dec 29, 2007
26. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 12:42 PM
in response to: intechspecial
No problem. It is all good.
Click to view ModernGorilla's profile Mogul ModernGorilla 24 posts since
Feb 22, 2008
27. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 12:55 PM
in response to: intechspecial
I work for an established company that has done approximately seven thousand sites, this is just my pet project. I've got years of experience here and working within small, regional businesses that lends me a unique perspective on the subject.

IWrite is spot on in his assessment of where web design is going; I'd love to elaborate more but I'm not going to show my cards just yet.
Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
28. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 2:51 PM
in response to: ModernGorilla
I will be interested in seeing the cards you will play, and I think I might actually be able to learn something from this thread, although it clearly seems I already have all the answers.
Some times having all the answers simply means you only have the best questions.

So please expand, if I might ask, on how a web design company can stay profitable five years from now?
Click to view sassysandy's profile Start-up sassysandy 1 posts since
Nov 14, 2008
29. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 3:34 PM
in response to: intechspecial
Only had my web site for a year now, and it's doing very well. No compliments to my hosting company. I was paying $25 per month for optimization that really wasn't doing anything for my site, that I could see. I dropped it and only pay for the site. After alot of reading about this subject I have learned that you can do your own advertising on the net for free or a small fee. And, it worked! Actually, I have had more visitor's with this method than the one I paid for. I was mislead by the hosting company. They lead me astray by way of not telling me what I needed to do to use this, they made me believe that just paying for it would give me a higher ranking. Not true. I also have another business that only requires two pages. I have a new web site for this business that I just happen to come accross and it's free! So I have linked the two. There is so much to learn, setting up the site is much easier compared to advertising, and advertising is key! I would tell anyone that wants to start a business to make sure they are sealling something they really have a passion for or truly believe in. Do your research. Read everything you can in general about hosting companies and optimization vs advertising and how to go about it. Make a list of questions to ask a hosting company before you sign up. Better to find one with a free trial, just in case. You can't start a business over night. It takes dedication, percerverence and alot of time. But, it's really worth it. People are still spending money. There are still people who have money to spend. Good Luck!
Click to view ModernGorilla's profile Mogul ModernGorilla 24 posts since
Feb 22, 2008
30. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 3:54 PM
in response to: intechspecial
Intech, the best way to see how a web design company can stay profitable five years from now is to stop looking at web design as the answer. You need to become a web-marketing company and you need to be proactive in measuring and tuning in to your client's needs.

As the post above mentions, a lot of small business owners can do this themselves, but they are not going to stay abreast of new developments or know how to maximize their potential (some will, of course, but most should be focused on running a business.. not promoting it).

Take the PR company model, scale it for the web, and start generating a pool of clients that you focus intensely on- don't just build a site, nurture a mutally rewarding relationship.

Again, I've been looking at this for the last year so I'm not going to start giving away my ideas on how to accomplish this, but that's the gist.
Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
31. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 3:59 PM
in response to: ModernGorilla

It seems to me that you are of the misunderstanding of how I operate.

I only tune into my clients needs.

This is the standard and not the exception.

You can verify this by going to my website, and viewing testimonials.


My clients needs have been met beyond their expectations.


I hope this helps to clarify.

Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
32. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 4:00 PM
in response to: ModernGorilla
Does this help to clarify?
Click to view ModernGorilla's profile Mogul ModernGorilla 24 posts since
Feb 22, 2008
33. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 4:32 PM
in response to: intechspecial
I wasn't making any assumptions, just going off the basis that some companies look at the site as the end product while I look at it as the beginning. And I'm not necessarily singling you out on this, it's something which the company I work for has also done in the past.. so I know at least one example is out there.

FWIW I'm not here to drum up business, just trying to keep my finger on the pulse by being here. I'm really only interested in working with businesses that I can physically walk into.
Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
34. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 5:34 PM
in response to: ModernGorilla
Thanks for the clarification.

I would have to agree their is always at least one.
Click to view Iwrite's profile Mogul Iwrite 1,101 posts since
Dec 29, 2007
35. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 14, 2008 5:51 PM
in response to: ModernGorilla
As a measure of disclosure - if you want to see my latest site that I helped to concept and write go to www.pizzahut.com. I was the writer on that project until recently. This isn't a brag or a boast but an insight into where I am coming from when I talk about interactive. I see no reason why the things that are done for big business online cannot and should not be done for small and medium businesses. When smaller web design firms understand and take advantage of this then their future will as bright as can be.

Think bigger.
Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
36. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 15, 2008 12:52 AM
in response to: Iwrite
If you are serious about that you have worked with pizzahut.com, I stand sadly mistaken by my perception of your business.

That is quite a brag(to say the least) to have worked on that level.

My biggest brag was a 1 day deployment project with the Department of Homeland Securities Offices in the Federal Building in downtown Cleveland.

It was an honor and a shock that I would even have such an opportunity.

If anyone doubts the validity of this, I would be happy to supply references if you can prove that you are a legitimate business.
Click to view Iwrite's profile Mogul Iwrite 1,101 posts since
Dec 29, 2007
37. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 15, 2008 8:10 PM
in response to: intechspecial
I am very serious. I have been blessed that my career has covered some really good advertising agencies and clients. I don't drop names because it isn't my style. Sound advice is sound advice - we need to learn to listen to people and recognize good advice when we hear it without having to know their history.

I will take you at your word about the work you have done, that's the type of person I am.
Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
38. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 15, 2008 8:13 PM
in response to: Iwrite
Very good, I will look for this.

I would offer you my linkedin profile url, but I get the feeling your motives are not of integrity.

Search as you would like, you will be shocked at the results.
Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
39. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 15, 2008 8:26 PM
in response to: Iwrite
Please understand that I am only trying to establish myself and my business, and do not wish to make enemies via this community.

I will of course openly disclose direct references for businesses that can establish they have a valid reason for their request.

I keep the privacy of my referrals at the highest level, as I do not wish for persons to harass my business relationships.

I will follow through to the full extent of the law, if contact of my business relations is used for defamation or slander.
Click to view Iwrite's profile Mogul Iwrite 1,101 posts since
Dec 29, 2007
40. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 15, 2008 8:27 PM
in response to: intechspecial
"I would offer you my linkedin profile url, but I get the feeling your motives are not of integrity.

Search as you would like, you will be shocked at the results."

I rest my case. This attack was not warranted. And you want to accuse others of attacking you? I'm not sure what your issues are but you really need to take a good look at your actions and words. I just told you that I take you at your word about your experience, and you respond with these words? Have you even noticed that less and less people are even responding to you?
Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
41. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 15, 2008 8:30 PM
in response to: Iwrite
Iwrite -

You responded in a previous thread in how outraged and upset you are with my comments. I had only asked why you offer support and also frustrated with me on a regular basis.

I open up this forum after your post in how you are outraged to find you say you are going to do a search on my contacts.

Of course I am going to be concerned with this.
Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
42. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 15, 2008 8:31 PM
in response to: intechspecial
It was not meant to be an attack by any means.

I am just not sure why you have such a need to look into my business contacts?

How will it suit you in your business venture?
Click to view Iwrite's profile Mogul Iwrite 1,101 posts since
Dec 29, 2007
43. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 15, 2008 8:35 PM
in response to: intechspecial
Intech,

As far as business goes, we swim in different waters. The only thing I am interested in getting from this forum is information and encouragement. I do not solicit business here. Check my past posts. I am sorry that you feel you have to resort to threatening people but do what you feel you have to.

No where did I ask for your references. I have never expressed an interest in working with you. You do not have anything I want. I was trying to help you.

It must be a sad existence to see enemies everywhere you look.
Click to view Iwrite's profile Mogul Iwrite 1,101 posts since
Dec 29, 2007
44. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 15, 2008 8:37 PM
in response to: Iwrite
Post away. This is no longer a conversation I wish to be a part of. Good luck again.
Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
45. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 15, 2008 8:47 PM
in response to: Iwrite

Iwrite -

You are extremely right on this, and I am not being sarcastic at all.


It is an extremely sad existence to be afraid of people every where you go.


So do I allow this to be my defining characteristic?


I have no choice but it to be my defining characteristic, but at the same time, I will fight on every level to combat the very thing that has destroyed me on every level.


So what do I do? I try to do something good for myself, and society in general. I take the very thing that is ugly and makes me nothing and I use it to try and empower myself and others.


Have I succeeded? Yes I have, if only minimally.

I have been able to help a handful of organizations in what they do, so that they may help people or a cause.

How much do I charge?

Nothing.

When you have something that takes so much from your life every day, you must give back.

What is my alternative?

I understand your frustration and animosity that you have with me and my perspectives, much more then you will ever realize or understand.

The difference between you and me, is that you get to close your web browser and can leave it here on this website.

I close my web browser and it is with me, every where I go.

I do not choose to carry this burden, but I have no choice.

So I make do with what I have, and I continue to try.

So at least one day I can say...........

I had this horrible disease that took over my life, but through business and volunteerism, I was still able to do a tiny bit of good.

Click to view Lighthouse24's profile Mogul Lighthouse24 2,396 posts since
Oct 10, 2007
46. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 15, 2008 8:58 PM
in response to: intechspecial

Intechspecial, your own corporate website describes you as having "nothing to offer but negativity and depravation from society. On a day to day basis he thinks of nothing but himself and what he can do to make his life and his life only, better. Although (your name) has had a few substantial accomplishments, he still is nothing more then a flawed entity that drains all that might come in his path, as it really is "all about me".

Are you thinking someone else can "top" that in terms of defamation? Although I'm NOT a marketing guy, I can't see how that message to the world about you and your business is helping you attract clients or accomplish your stated objective.
Click to view Lighthouse24's profile Mogul Lighthouse24 2,396 posts since
Oct 10, 2007
47. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 15, 2008 8:59 PM

Within this community, Iwrite and I have disagreed WAY more than we have agreed -- yet I respect his viewpoint and professionalism, and believe he has always extended me the same courtesy. In the real world, we might like each other, then again we might not -- but I'll guarantee that, either way, we'd be able to work together toward a common business goal if the opportunity arose.

Professionalism and mutual respect are essential to developing a small business, and to finding one's place in a supportive community.
Click to view Iwrite's profile Mogul Iwrite 1,101 posts since
Dec 29, 2007
48. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 15, 2008 9:21 PM
in response to: Lighthouse24
Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
49. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 15, 2008 9:22 PM
in response to: Lighthouse24

That is an extremely good question, and I am actually quite glad you asked.


If I might pre-empt this by saying that I use to hide that I have a disability from everyone. This is how I recieved the IT contracts with Cleveland Clinic, Department of Homeland Security, ADT securities, etc, etc, etc.


I thought that if I put my mind only on my work that I would overcome my disabled mind. It worked but only temporarily. The work was to much, and I became mentally sicker.


So I had to quit my efforts to work full time. I started my own company, "Integrity Technology Specialists". I thought hey I could own my own business and set my own hours, this way if I became sick, I could take time off and not affect anyones business but my own. My business at this point was a computer and repair business. I fought and struggled to develop any work. Finally I got a humongous break, and found a company that was going to sub contract me. My pay rate was up to $65/ hour. Initially it was done with relative ease, but in a short period of time, the travel and meeting people I did not know became to much for me to handle. I tried to subcontract work out to people, through a business associate. These were people that were also struggling(poverty, welfare system), but had a newly attained degree in Information Technology. They ones I subcontracted, failed on every level. The business that hired me as a sub contractor lossed a big client.

I still would not disclose my disabilty, and decided that considering my anxiety around people, it might be better for me to work from home only.

Hence a new dream(or delusion), was born. I then took my previous skills and experience and applied them to Web Development. I was able to develop a few clients(pro bono), but still had problems from my mental illness.

I continued to hide my disability in fear of societies response to me.

After having an extreme episode, I decided I had no choice but to disclose my disability.

So rather then saying to everyone "hey I am a great guy that will build a website for you for free", I decided to say "I am this really mentally sick guy that is trying to help society and give back when his disability takes so much".

The even bigger problem with this view point is that I am not alone. This "mental sickness" is in each and everyone one of us on some level.

The biggest problem is that most cannot even see they are a problem.

My website most certainly does say "nothing to offer but negativity and depravation from society. On a day to day basis he thinks of nothing but himself and what he can do to make his life and his life only, better. Although (your name) has had a few substantial accomplishments, he still is nothing more then a flawed entity that drains all that might come in his path, as it really is "all about me

This is not just me, it is human nature.

So my point in all of this is.........

If this insane monster has the ability to take responsibility and give back..............

why can't you?

At the same time, hopes of making an honest profit.

Not reality based?

For me, it is better to live this way then to live in reality.

I am what society calls " a mentally ill monster".

To make matters worse, I have a heart condition, sarcoidosis, asthma, severe sleep apnia, memory loss from several concussions, and a recent diagnosis of degenatarive disc disease.

This "delusion" of the idea I will ever be successful, gives me the ability to think and believe my life actually has real value, even though in my heart of hearts I feel it does not.

To make matters worse, I have passed on this wretched existence to my daughter, as at 12 years of age she has been diagnosed with a mental illness as well.

So it no longer becomes an option to not try and succeed. If I do not succeed, my daughter will be thrown into the public mental health system, which could have her drooling off of herself by the age of 25.

If I have the finances and abilities to accomplish business success, she can get GOOD PRIVATE help, and not the wretched public mental health that is provided.

So I will continue, without avail, on this "delusion" for a business, on the hopes that someday I might be successful.

Even if not, I have been given relief from the pain of my physcial ailments and my mental turmoil on a day to day basis.

As sick as I am I still want to accomplish something in my life other then "insanity".

Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
50. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 15, 2008 9:33 PM
in response to: Lighthouse24
Lighthouse -

Since day one of my entering this community, you have offered a rebuttal and remark as to why I am wrong in everything I do.

You have stated that I have no abilities, yet offered encouragement, and at the same time pointed out how I will fail.

I have not one time seen you offer this level of professionalism to Iwrite, although many others have left the community because of this level of interaction.

So Iwrite and yourself have this level of professionalism that you offer yourselves within every post.

I also find it interesting that you have both recently stepped up this level of interaction as I have recently passed Iwrite on the leader board, and now I am catching you.

Through all of this, you are able to end the post with how I am being "attacking" or "aggressive" and it actually looks quite believable.

This thread was originally started to make a comment about changes in the web development industry.

Yet now it is a place to attack intechspecial.

Do as you must.
Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
51. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 15, 2008 10:07 PM
in response to: Lighthouse24

Ok this has gone above and beyond, why must you continue on this level?
Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
52. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 15, 2008 10:13 PM

Another thing that I have noticed in the changes of the industry is the change of technology advances.

Microsoft offers a new implementation, called silverlight, and is a great competitior to Adobe's flash.

It will take time before Silverlight is completely propogated through the internet, but when it does, the results will be completely unbelievable.

The 2008 olympics utilized Silverlight Streaming.

The internet is changing faster then we realize, and the new face of the internet is going to allow much more interactivity and a much more stunning grahpical enhancements.


What will your web design company do to adapt to these changes?

Click to view Iwrite's profile Mogul Iwrite 1,101 posts since
Dec 29, 2007
53. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 15, 2008 10:15 PM
in response to: intechspecial
Lighthouse has given you a great suggestion for how to make a difference. How is that bad?
Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
54. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 15, 2008 10:17 PM
in response to: Iwrite
As a way of combating Microsoft's Silverlight, adobe seems to have made some well thought out ideas to their products.

Silverlight may be the wave of the future, but Adobe is still the wave of today.
Click to view NuevolutionWD's profile Authority NuevolutionWD 18 posts since
Oct 19, 2008
55. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 24, 2008 3:20 AM
in response to: intechspecial
Intechspecial,
I don't think that the Web Design Industry is in trouble because of a simple WYSIWYG editor or because someone offers free templates. Remember, technology is changing every day and if you stay competitive in the web design industry you will succeed. Being Competitive means, changing your coding methodologies as fast as the industry changes. For example, lots of designers still use tables as their tool of choice to build web sites and other developers like myself prefer to work in a FULL CSS table-less architecture.

I think that the only way a company will suffer is if they don't care to change. As for the silverlight comment.. I don't think silverlight is going to stand the test of time... Adobe has been in the Industry for years and most designers are more familiar with Adobe that with MS Silverlight.

Just like with Microsoft expressions... More people prefer Dreamweaver over Expressions...
Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
56. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Nov 24, 2008 4:25 AM
in response to: NuevolutionWD

Yes I agree completely. I did not go completely into details.

Another way to look at this is to think of terms of the "stand alone html designer".

To stay competitive you must have more then JUST html skills.

You have to be multi-faceted or high end at at least on main skill.

A designer must know CSS as you mentioned, but they also must understand how HTML and CSS fit in with a complete web application. You can no longer just understand the front end of development, you need to at the very least understand how the front end of HTML/CSS works out with the Back End- Server loaded code.


As far as tables, you are completey correct in your uderstanding of Tables from a "designer" point of view. Tables were made as a way to display server-side data with relative ease. Designers took this idea and would use it as a way to make complete statically loaded websites.


Tables do have their us today as well, as it is still the industry accepted method for displaying the backend server loaded code that is attached to a database, it is not possilbe to do otherwise. CSS is for the display of the "front end" of an interface, and has no relevance on the "back end" server loaded code. Take for example this site, the SBOC. Yes it is based in "tableless CSS" design. This is only referenicing the HTML and not the Dynamically loaded Java Server Page development. The dynamically loaded code is generated from a database formatted dependent on the users request or other information.

Let me try and explain a little simpler.
Go to this site: www.intechspecial.com Click on a tab at the top. Click the same tab at the top. The result is? The same exact page no matter how many times you click.
Now go to this site: www.freeits.net Click on a link at the top. Click on the same link. The result is? A different banner every time you click on the page.

www.intechspecial.com is a statically loaded html website. It is also a template.
www.freeits.net is a fully functional web application. Although its user interaction is limited it still makes a "server round trip" every time you click on a link.

The html page does not. Once you load it into your browser, it stays in your browser, via a temp file.


CSS of course should be the only method used for a static-loaded html website.


I cannot say that I disagree or agree with your views of Silverlight. The 2008 Olympics Utilized silverlight to stream video. Adobe is still the current standard. Time will answer this question. The idea behind referencing Silverlight is that a "basic css html" website will soon be a thing of the past, and their will be practically no ned for someone who is only an HTML expert. CSS designers must understand more then just CSS to continue to be successful.

Now for the comment on Expression to Dreamweaver. This is like comparing Apples to Oranges.
Dreamweaver is not just an "html editor" but it allows for more functionality for developers who focus on more then just html. It has vast support within Java, PHP, and more specifically works quite nicely with other Adobe Products. For someone who does not need to just design a "static html" website it is the standard and not the exception.

Now bring in Expression Web, which is the "upgrade" from Front Page. It is the upgrade with one key exception. It can easily be used within a team develoment environment. You will have your development team with Microsoft's Team Visual Studio. You then have your design team working with Microsoft's Expression web, which can easily render ASP.net pages. At the same time, you have designers working with Expression Blend, and more then likely Adobe Photoshop for graphics. You will also have your Database team working with a SQL database so. Finally you have team working on IIS 7 and security. This is not exactly how it works, but only the simplified version.

For an individual who is a "hobbyist" expression web is the best solution, as its core focus is HTML/CSS front end code. Easier to use and learn interface, and cost alot less then the current dreamweaver. Dreamweaver works best if your focus for development will be with .php and MySQL.

If you take a look at www.freeits.net, it was developed using the following tools: Visual Studio 2008(Visual Basic), Expression Web(HTML,CSS), Expression Design(Custom Graphics), SQL Server, XML, other Data Sources(Visual Basic programming finds appropriate code and formats it with the appropriate html/css and sends it to the browser), IIS v7(security, and .net framework), and a few other sever side, and client side scripts, and/or code.

So from a basic understanding you are completely correct in your views and opinion.

From an understanding of where technology is going as well as the internet, you need to dig a little bit deeper into the "recipe" to completely understand.

Michael Stratton, MCSA, MCP, MCNPS, A+, Server+ Net+
Volunteer & Disabled Web Developer/Designer
President, Integrity Technology Specialists

Click to view felkinsworks's profile Professional felkinsworks 5 posts since
Nov 30, 2008
57. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Dec 1, 2008 12:07 AM
in response to: intechspecial
You should write some ebooks. and sell them on amazon.com . free to sign up ... 50% split. you can make your ebooks about your mental problems. might help others. Plus you can write, so take a break then do some more writing. I know some programers out thier making less than me! poor . I have a freind who started making his music on line he works for the State of CA anyway ... after 3 years he now only makes about around $89,000 thosand a year working part time making music.

I have another friend who cannot sell his music on line for free. and I think his music is better than the guy above?

I met a metally retarded guy, he came into a bar one day here in Sacramento CA, he was leaglly retarded. he had a house two brand new dodge trucks. loaded! He bought ever one in the bar a drink and had two women following him around!

So i asked if he would teach me his skills.! I said i would work for free. ! so I worked for him.
Now he cleans windows, so I went with him, we cleaned A nice rich house $900,000 !

But when it came time to pay, He asked for $350.00 for one 8 hour day! not bad... But the home owner said " NO" "We need to pay you right," the home owner gave him $100 more so he made $450.00 not bad for one days work.
I could not belive it!

I clean the windows better, The above guy did not even know how to clean the windows etc ... but because the home owners felt bad for the retarded guy they gave him more! and re-rehired him again next year!

That guy inspired me to get out there and work harder!

I have had a long hard trip too, my first was to learn Java programming, Just as i am able to program a little, peoples over seas could program faster, cheaaaaaaaaaper than me! some of those programers are only makeing $7.00per hour!
So to compete I need to program better. But found a compay here in Folsom CA, They fly in prohramers from INDIA and pay them about $15 per h to $35, but thiose programers works as a team, so thay can program alot really fast! amazing ! you have 10 people programing on one project, they can but up a whole web site faster than anyone I have ever seen!

So how can you compete?

Now I am trying to learn and make 3D moives I am using Blender a free software, my goal now it to make cool 3D stuff
and load it on a website to create new traffic, for the customer. the better the Idea, the more peole will see it, and more sales for the customer. I found out it's been a log hard work. I am still learning ..but getting better. The next to hit the web will be web TV
were you can have your own channel, boy thats cool, my goal is to make 3D movies and put them fro free on the internet and hope people will like them!

If you can make the best web movie you can attract people to your site then $$$ they buy from you or from your clients site.
I just read about a guy who worked for micrsoft then letf to work for google ...now makes good $$$ saling his tee shirts on line!
like from meta cafe or zazzle.com

I Hope i will have my site fixed up by next week check it out then.

Mark Felkins

PS its always good to tell people inadvanced about your limits.

If you want a good laugh see me at youtube seach under stray cat the vent fair oaks cal see my videos!

thanks and good luck!
Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
58. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Dec 1, 2008 1:32 AM
in response to: felkinsworks
Thanks for your reply, it is encouraging.

Yes people are quite aware of my limits, the funny thing is that the more I do this, the less limits I have. My limitations are my mind, and my mind is allowed full creativity in what I do, yet I am always keeping the highest level of professionalism, and integrity, along with error free results. I expect in a short period of time, you will see an even bigger expansion on what I am doing, and contrary to prior belief, a man who is insane, can accomplish business results.

As far as programming I understand your frustration completely. I have a good base understanding in ASP.net, visual basic, ,php, any code out their I can give you a base of how it works, and resolve minor to medium problems.

The problem is basically as you describe it. I am currently working a project for someone based in Austrailia, for a whopping $6/hour.

To make matters worse, the only way I have been able to break into the market is through doing nothing but free work.

The great thing about this is that I have a hugh core group of supporter, that expand the width of the globe, and maybe even a few galaxies as well.

This has turned into a potentially bigger project which will lead to other even bigger projects.

My limitations on this end are next to null, since I do all my work from the comfort of my own home. I am on the computer doing this stuff anyways, up to 12 or more hours a day at times. So I have currently the ability to succeed without limitations.

To make things easier on myself, I have the ability to outsource some of my very own work to others. So let's say I am doing work that is comparable to the USA standard of $125/hour. Why would I charge this much if I can outsource to up to 10 developers that work better and faster then me? I just have to review what they are doing, and make sure before hand that they actually have a clue, through there portfolio and past work.

The great thing about what you are doing as a java programmer you can do the very same thing. You just need some good sales and marketing tactics.

My way of doing business, has just caused it to potentially burst at the seams, and I might need more professionals working under me that I can trust and I am confident in their abilities.

So your rate and are of expertiese will allow you much success, you just have to know how to apply your abilities to make them work.

As far as selling t-shirts and such, why would I want to step into using a magic marker, when I have a scientific calculator at my fingertips?

Please feel free to contact me, but you must understand my organization is based on volunteerism, period.

Thanks for your post, and please sit back and enjoy the ride, as it is getting to be quite a enjoyable one at that.

Mike
(inTech "SPECIAL")

Click to view felkinsworks's profile Professional felkinsworks 5 posts since
Nov 30, 2008
59. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Dec 1, 2008 3:15 AM

Yahoo has a free site builder program too. its great!

Most of the big corps hire AD firms like Ogilvy & Mather. this company used to promise 10% 50% uptick in sales or it was freeeeeeeee! or sometimes they paid their client money!

I studyed this company for awhile, They sale Ideas, there Ads are out there! This company sales YOU.

Like with anything.... its Ideas that sales, like music, art, etc. The same with Web sites!

Look at the yellow pages you see companys who can buy a full AD...... some companys only a name & number!

The bigger AD wins most of the time.

The internet you can now down load video about your company, etc.

Blogs are too big now ...so whats next? It might be your Idea that makes it big!

I saw a site in New York, great 3D site ...showed his 3D room, If you clicked on the window the curtains would open and you could see a 3D godzilla with fire ! it was kind of fake but coooool! he go millions of hits !!

You cannot be a just a programer anymore! you have to be an artist, develper of Ideas, 3D, CGI, art work, video works etc.
the goal is to bring customers to a website ...just having some picks and video are not enough.
you can make anything with Blender with out programming! nice. Or you can have some one program Blender for you!

I have been using blender 3D software its free... you can make real looking pics, video, complie it, convert it to flash if you like and put it on a website!

I have a way to get traffic to your site, lots of work, If your a small company you can do it your self, If you have a growing company then you will not have the time to to the work! hire me!

But when we get people to your site, if the site looks like, sonys web site boring ! or others like it. But sony has all the money too, so that doest matter for them.

Check out snickers web site the candy bar maker, boy I like that site, Nobody is going to tell you how to make a great site!

They keep there gold close to them.

There are alot of scams out there, I found a company that will make fake traffic to your site ! so you look good on the net!
but your wallet is empty ! Or you can pay per click , I heard some companys paid out as much as $100. per click, not per customer...per click! yaaa some people over sea's just clicking away at your site and split the money! fake people! nice!

Dream If I have investment money a golden angel, who would fund my company, I have a new Idea, that would bring traffic to your site or to your door NOW! chew on that ! If you got some money! call me. will talk. You have to sign some paper work.

dont give up!

If you need help let me know 916 821-7378

Mark A. Felkins


Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
60. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Dec 1, 2008 3:38 AM
in response to: felkinsworks
Thanks for the information.

Yes the Yahoo site builder, it is a great place to start for both designers and business owners.

You do not have to have HTML experience to use it.

I checked out your website, do you know that the Yahoo Site Builder has a ton of free templates?

Just an fyi.
Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
61. Re: Trouble for Web Design Companies Dec 1, 2008 3:38 AM
in response to: felkinsworks
Oh and hey,

Welcome to the Network!

:)

Mike