Taking Advantage of Youth - A Business ...

DomainDiva 1,732 posts since
Oct 10, 2007

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1. Re: Taking Advantage of Youth - A Business Ethics Question Nov 6, 2008 12:59 PM

FWIW Dad, YOU dropped the ball.

You give a 'kid' an account and don't teach them how to keep a register? Use Quickbooks? Seems to me that with a Masters Degree in accounting you should have been able to sit down with him and discuss all of the pros and cons as well as how banks post. Even better when the account was opened, there should have been a meeting with a banking representative to discuss HOW important it is to manage each financial account as well as 'terminology'.

Your son did not set up online banking? Online banking gives all the details, what the total balance is, what is on hold and what is AVAILABLE as well. I am assuming that your son is internet savvy how did this ball get dropped? He could have set up the account to be accessed by his cellphone as well. Who in their right mind depends on an ATM machine for current account information?

" +POINT OF INTEREST: For any readers, if your children have checkcards - do they maintain a check register? My guess is NO! Most of them have never written a check in their lives and don't connect with the "write it down and keep the balance" mentality of adults. +

This statement above shows that you could have cared less about sharing your adult mentality with him, maybe if you would have, he would not be in the mess he's in. You need to fork over 350.00 and then teach him some accounting skills to go with that check card and credit card.

These days people on both sides of the fence '*assume'* that just because they have something, they 'understand' it. Thats not how the world works. The Bof A rep assumed that your son knew what was going on. Your son assumed that he knew what was going on. To tell you the truth, I don't believe either one of them knew how the credit card thing would work out in the end.

My kids had checking accounts and a small credit card each at 16. They knew how to keep a register, we discussed overdraft, posted balances, available balances as well as interest rates on credit cards and how buying something on sale and NOT paying for it in full when the bill came in caused that purchase to go up in price. I sat down with them at the home and at the bank. We spent time with registers and calculators every month and looked for the .02 when the account did not balance.

Seems to me theres enough blame to go around on both sides. Too many assumptions...NOT enough information.

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DomainDiva 1,732 posts since
Oct 10, 2007

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2. Re: Taking Advantage of Youth - A Business Ethics Question Nov 6, 2008 1:52 PM

"Perhaps the last question: Am I the one off base here?

Oh...per the Bank of America Web Site related to their Code of Business Ethics the following is stated: The code, in effect, explains what we mean when we say one of our core values is "doing the right thing." Somehow I can't think that charging unsuspecting newly turned 18 year olds is "the right thing" - but perhaps I am off base? "
Domain Diva: Yes you are, you are requiring only one party (BofA) to adhere to an 'ethical standard', while you failed in your 'ethical standard and responsibility' to your son by not providing him with the guidance he needed.

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Lighthouse24 2,396 posts since
Oct 10, 2007

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3. Re: Taking Advantage of Youth - A Business Ethics Question Nov 6, 2008 2:18 PM

Sorry, Chuck. I'd be willing to bet anything that the bank officer gave your son a 10x7 folder with that disclosure you mentioned packed neatly inside, along with the bank officer's business card and an invitation to call with any question about those terms. If not, her bad.

Was it her job to verbally explain all those terms and conditions to an 18-year-old? I don't think so. First of all, it probably would have been a waste of both of their time. Second, 18-year-olds drive, vote, defend our county (and other countries, as well), and are treated as adults in many jurisdictions for most legal purposes. If a young person (old person, or ANY person) can legally sign-up for something, then that person should be responsible finding out what he/she needs to know about it, and then be held accountable for fulfilling the terms of the deal.

A couple of years ago, I was on the jury panel for a case where the defendant's two children were caught shoplifting -- not once, but SIX times from the same business before the owner and the police finally got fed up and filed charges against the mom. Her defense was that the store owner put all this attractive stuff out on the shelves, and that kids (which in this case were 10 and 14) couldn't be expected to understand that it wasn't just there for the taking, that it had to be purchased -- and that she couldn't be expected to keep track of what they were doing the whole time she was in there shopping. Was the store owner ethically obligated to educate her kids on how a retail operation works, and to let them keep $250 of merchandise if he didn't?

I can't recall a case in the last thirty years or so of a major bank providing a financial or credit-related service for FREE without advertising that fact. Like a retail store, if a bank has something good to offer, it's going to cost us (probably a lot) unless there's a big banner hanging off the side of the building that says it's FREE.

You sound like a sharp person and nice guy. Perhaps this experience will help you and especially your son avoid what could be some far more costly lessons down the road. Best wishes.

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chuckgallaghe 17 posts since
Nov 6, 2008

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4. Re: Taking Advantage of Youth - A Business Ethics Question Nov 6, 2008 3:37 PM

in response to: DomainDiva

Great post...love the banter.

Facts are he had online banking...but what kid in the middle of the day after stopping at an ATM to check a balance goes to "online" banking?

There certainly is plenty of blame and I share my part. At the time, I lived in Texas and he in North Carolina. He thought he was taking care of it and felt that by doing so he would be pleasing his dad. I had no clue what was taking place...other than monitoring his account through "on-line banking" and trying via the phone to help him when he first over-drew his account.

Who would have "thunk" that it would have turned out the way it did.

My question is - why not refund the $250 (the extra charge he would have not incurred had the card been linked in the first place)? Better still, why can't a card issued for that purpose be automatically linked? The charges can damn sure automatically happen, but the account can't be linked?

Hum...something doesn't add up...

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chuckgallaghe 17 posts since
Nov 6, 2008

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5. Re: Taking Advantage of Youth - A Business Ethics Question Nov 6, 2008 3:07 PM

in response to: DomainDiva

Now...that is making an assumption that you have no basis to make. How do you know what I provided and what I did not?

The question is - does the Bank have responsibility to provide direction to new account holders when suggesting a product that costs them in unexpected ways?

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puzzleman 293 posts since
Oct 11, 2007

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6. Re: Taking Advantage of Youth - A Business Ethics Question Nov 6, 2008 3:15 PM

No sense repeating all of the good advice above. I agree that the parent should have given more instruction and follow up to the child.

Jim

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chuckgallaghe 17 posts since
Nov 6, 2008

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7. Re: Taking Advantage of Youth - A Business Ethics Question Nov 6, 2008 3:54 PM

in response to: DomainDiva

Points of clarification:

1. My son did have on-line banking. That said how many kids when they make a purchase in the middle of the day and go to the ATM to check their balance - go to "on-line" banking? They assume the information from the ATM is right. While that may be inaccurate, ask a kid and that's the answer you'll get.

2. The account was set up on line - there was never a meeting with a bank representative. I lived in Dallas, Texas my son in NC. Who goes into the bank to do such a thing these days?

3. DomanDiva...your right...I must be the problem. You see I don't keep a check register...as I do on-line banking and have sufficient funds to avoid an overdraft. While I had the discussion with my son, it wasn't till it happened that it became clear to him what I was trying to convey. If you have children, I would suspect that you know that kids (like adults) learn from mistake much more effectively than they do from their parent providing wisdom from adult experience.

4. You state: *They knew how to keep a register, we discussed overdraft, posted
balances, available balances as well as interest rates on credit cards
and how buying something on sale and NOT paying for it in full when the
bill came in caused that purchase to go up in price. I sat down with
them at the home and at the bank. We spent time with registers and
calculators every month and looked for the .02 when the account did not
balance.* First...that's impressive. You must have accounting training. I was partner in a CPA firm and I can promise you I never looked for .02. It wasn't material and was too boring for me, but then that was me. I had people work for me who did and I was alway in awe. I am in awe of the approach you have taken with your kids. CONGRATULATIONS! I say that with a spirit of true appreciation.

Nice post on your end and appreciated.

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DomainDiva 1,732 posts since
Oct 10, 2007

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8. Re: Taking Advantage of Youth - A Business Ethics Question Nov 6, 2008 4:53 PM

in response to: chuckgallaghe

The point being. You did NOT follow up with this child on what the rules are. I do not have an accounting background, but if theres one thing I learned as a parent that I passed along as well it is: Always follow up. No Excuses. These are children whose brains are not fully developed and do not have everything in place for critical thinking. A parent must stay on top of what a child is doing 24/7. There is too much out there in everyday situations that can cause havoc.

You did not follow up. Thats my story and I am sticking to it.

If a kid can text message he can go online on his cell phone and get the real information. Thats the point as well. Parents have to teach children the right way not assume they can get there by themselves, they cannot.

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chuckgallaghe 17 posts since
Nov 6, 2008

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9. Re: Taking Advantage of Youth - A Business Ethics Question Nov 6, 2008 5:12 PM

in response to: DomainDiva

And the bank has no responsibility to link accounts is that is why they are being promoted or to disclose charges? I can accept my responsibility - why do you defend Bank of America when it comes to theirs? Do you work for them? Or since this is their thread are you paid to respond? Just curious...

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chuckgallaghe 17 posts since
Nov 6, 2008

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10. Re: Taking Advantage of Youth - A Business Ethics Question Nov 6, 2008 5:23 PM

in response to: DomainDiva

DomainDiva - MY APOLOGIES for questioning your motive. I am new to this community and had time to research you and see that you have no conneciton to the Bank of America. I hope you will accept my apologies!

As a pilot I liked that your were connected to the aerospace industry...anyone who can help someone fly is tops in my books.

My best to you.

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DomainDiva 1,732 posts since
Oct 10, 2007

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11. Re: Taking Advantage of Youth - A Business Ethics Question Nov 6, 2008 6:42 PM

in response to: chuckgallaghe

Well if you have any ideas on kicking this latest 747 out of the maintenance hangar I am all ears.

You will find in my posts that I am beholdin' (wink) to no one. Thats why I am self employed...I don't have the temperment to work in a corporate environment.

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blitzlocal 92 posts since
Mar 20, 2008

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12. Re: Taking Advantage of Youth - A Business Ethics Question Nov 9, 2008 12:04 AM

in response to: chuckgallaghe

Wow-- you would think that given BofA runs this forum and that we're talking about BofA fees, that someone from the bank would reach out and make a kind gesture. It's just a couple hundred bucks we're talking about here.
Wouldn't that go a long way, given that this thread is viewed a lot? Such as action would be in line with same purpose of building this forum-- to build community.

Dennis
Analyst, BlitzLocal.com
internet advertising for local businesses

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chuckgallaghe 17 posts since
Nov 6, 2008

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13. Re: Taking Advantage of Youth - A Business Ethics Question Nov 9, 2008 12:43 AM

in response to: blitzlocal

You know...the funny part is...I found this forum - posted the question and then found out it was sponsored by Bank of America.

In no way am I shirking my or my son's responsbility for what happened. But, honestly I feel that if the card had been linked (to me as it should have when suggested by the Bank of America employee) then (a) we wouldn't be talking about this and (b) my son would have paid for his stupidity $100 not $250.

It seems that the Bank is more concerned with keeping the $250 than keeping a customer.

My son is studying to be a physician. Can you imagine when he finishes and starts his practice who he will select for his banking relationship - Hum...based on what I've seen thus far...I won't be the Bank of America. And since he and I are both North Carolinians and that home for the Bank of America...I hate to see greed or need for profits (from whatever source) be so strong that customer service and ethical choices are lost.

Of course, others have disagreeded as you can see from the comments above.

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DomainDiva 1,732 posts since
Oct 10, 2007

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14. Re: Taking Advantage of Youth - A Business Ethics Question Nov 9, 2008 9:43 AM

in response to: chuckgallaghe

I posted in an earlier answer that it was possible that neither your son nor the bank person that suggested the credit card knew how the credit card thing was going to play out.

Focusing (wink) on that I think I may have an answer, and it's not a business ethics (?) its what I call an IT Ethics question. Let me explain.

Products are issued by banks with 'X' as the objective. That is in this case (I hope) to lessen any overdraft charges. However, during the IT/posting process the IT portion recognizes the overdraft as what it really is..an overdraft. The IT in effect due to the way charges are processed 'bypasses' the 'intent' of the linking of accounts. When new products are offered, IT changes are not made to deal with the new 'what if X', 'then this Y' aspect of the financial. product. In other words, the DomainExpert of the financial institution may either not have been notified of the new consumer product, or was in the process of making any changes to the domain or was prohibited by Sarbanes-Oxley acccounting rules & regs from doing so.

Take a moment and digest my experiences (2 of many) with banking IT and account linking.

While banking at another institution now seized by the Fed I constantly argued with them regarding charges. My accounts were supposed to be 'linked', mortgage, business accounts, personal accounts so that when the total sum of X was reached, all service fees were waived. It took eight months of me going to the branch every month, get the service fee credited in. Each month the branch manager would call the help desk, the last time he called some IT guy answered and he finally got into a part of the system to send an email to IT to tell them to LOOK at the account list under my social and to get the links straight.

Banks are notorius for compartmentalizing their accounting. I have actually recieved call from collections regarding fees on lines of credit that are waived because of my account links and status. Even the branch manager and the executive help desk were not able to stop the calls. The calls stopped when I was finally ALLOWED, yes ALLOWED to speak with the supervisor of collections who then went into 'another part' of the system, and read all of the 6 weeks worth of comments and then removed my number from the automatic deliquent account call list.

The problem as I see it, is that the institutions 'Domain Expert' is out of touch with the actual 'consumerism' of the financial institution.

If I had not followed up, and stayed on it...I would have been out hundreds of dollars of fees. All banks have their particluar IT quirks. FWIW, I still think you dropped the ball in assuming your son knew the 'accounting stuff' however, a trip to some BofA Presidents office may get you some relief and call attention to some IT problems they may not even be aware of.

Good Luck. It can be done.

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