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Click to view Biz Online's profile Mogul Biz Online 71 posts since
Oct 10, 2007
15. Re: Question About Linking Mar 24, 2008 7:15 PM
in response to: NatOnline

Hey Jean Luc, Cliff here.
Search engines don't penalize websites for the links that they have incoming, it's only a penalty if you are linking out to link farms, also known as "bad neighborhoods", that could possibly get you in trouble.

No one can control links you get, whether from MFA / made for adsense websites, bad neighborhoods, etc. But you can control the links that you do on your site.

There is nothing wrong with a reciprocal link IF done correctly. If a site you linked to long ago turns bad, that doesn't necessarily mean that your whole site is penalized.

Paid links is a strategy. For instance, the Yahoo directory, one the most important directories on earth, is A PAID LINK, and still highly respected. Keep this in mind, as all paid links are not treated the same.

The point here is linking is a strategy that must be carefully built. There are companies that only specialize in linking, and Google's algorithym has at it's heart links and their characteristics. IF links don't exist, the web doesn't exist, Google doesn't exist, and were back to reading the newspaper...

Case in point: One of my clients, after employing a careful link strategy, we have got their site from #36 in Google to #5 in a very competitive market for a two word competitive phrase. We have video links from YouTube, directory links from Yahoo, DMOZ, Best of the Web, a few high traffic blogs, a mix of banner ads, and lot's of hard link building. The result, #5 in Google, in 133 days.

If you not performing a link strategy, then you are not in the game regarding optimizing your site.
Cliff Koraska
Click to view RobTaylor's profile Professional RobTaylor 4 posts since
Mar 24, 2008
16. Re: Question About Linking Mar 24, 2008 6:33 PM
Hi intech

It used to be a seriously flawed science. But Google changed that. In the old days, people would build a link partners page and link between as many sites as they could find. Some people would have a link partners page with hundreds of people on it that they exchanged links with. This was the most important crtiteria (outside of the page title) for Google ranking pages in the old days.

It does not work anymore. Google changed their SE to put little (if any) weight in to Website popularity based on link partner pages. It is basically ignored.

However, Google still takes linking in to account along with 99 other things as Google uses 100 different criteria for ranking pages. If your Website is linked from other Websites in prominent places then it is still good. I am not aware of any penalty for linking between Websites you own as long as there is relevant content on both. I have a few Website I own that are linked together in places and I have never seen anything to indicate I am being penalized for it. Just make sure you try and link your Websites in prominent places such as within article or on the home page.

Hope this helps.

Rob
Click to view NatOnline's profile Mogul NatOnline 670 posts since
Oct 10, 2007
17. Re: Question About Linking Mar 24, 2008 8:34 PM
in response to: Biz Online
Hello Cliff,

I understand you, but perhaps I did not give enough details. I agree that you are not responsible if someone in badneighborhood link to your site/pages, the problem I had before, techniques used by unethical SEO or webmasters.

Here is an example of what I am trying to say:
http://clsc.net/research/google-302-page-
hijack.htm
Click to view NatOnline's profile Mogul NatOnline 670 posts since
Oct 10, 2007
18. Re: Question About Linking Mar 24, 2008 9:11 PM
in response to: Biz Online
Click to view Biz Online's profile Mogul Biz Online 71 posts since
Oct 10, 2007
19. Re: Question About Linking Mar 25, 2008 8:52 AM
in response to: NatOnline
Nat,
I understand what you are saying about hijacking and such, and it does happen. Happens to my site all the time, because I rank high for a variety of terms, something hijackers look for..

Back on topic, by having a sound strategy of link building, reciprocals being only one part, will help build up your defenses against site scrappers and hijackers. Also doing 301 permanent redirects from www to non-www, or vice versa, will also help this from occuring, as well as keeping content fresh. I won't prevent it, but it keeps you in good graces with the engines.

Cliff Koraska
Click to view ezprint's profile Mogul ezprint 20 posts since
Mar 21, 2008
20. Re: Question About Linking Mar 25, 2008 9:32 AM
in response to: Biz Online
A way to remember how all the linking and tags and relations work in an easy way for people that don't get that deep into the mess of it all - is just to remember that links to your site count as votes.

Every site that votes has its own level of credibility and popularity which is measured by Google as their 'PR' or PageRank.

A rel="nofollow" in any of your links is put there when you dont want to endorse a vote to a site.

The best links you can get for your site are one-way linkbacks. (when a website links (votes) for your site without your site linking back to them. )

if you would like to see the linkbacks to your site type into Google " link: http://wwvv.thenameofyoursite.com/ "

You can also check it as wwvv. (without the http:)
This will give you the bets view of higher votes. Then try (shift backslash to get this = | ) "link| http://wwvv.nameofyoursite.com
You can also do this with competitor sites to see where their links are coming from.

A good site for checking the score (PR) of your site , and its internal pages individual score is
It doesnt look very good, but the function is nice.
http://www.livepr.info/internal-pages-pag
e-rank3.php

You can use sites like the live PR to check your site and competitor sites.

To start with linking strategy, consider a directory manual directory submission service. You shouldn't be paying more than $250 dollars for 2,000 directory submission. If you have the money to spend on this its a time saver since manual directory submissions can be a real tedius task.

There is no exact perfect method, only guidelines ..since each site is different and Google and other search engines will measure them according to their own logirithms.

As a perfect example, several times this has happened to me. I will do complete SEO on a new page, I'll get links and have it routed in a linking structure perfect for what its intended to do. I will have articles and blogs pointing to this page.. but for some reason, sometimes the page will rank low or not at all and some other page that I made and put up without much attention or concern about will get a top 30 search engine ranking.

So it just goes to show that no matter how much you know about it, the search engine 'secret' way of ranking can be stranger than fiction.
I've had quite a few pages with no links to them, and no intention of making them 'popular' suddenly pop up in search engines for pretty competitive keywords. So remember not to flush your wallets down the drain chasing SEO. It should be used to help your site and to follow the standards guidelines but in the bigger picture, the search engines prove that they do things how they want - even if nobody understands it 100% lol
Click to view NatOnline's profile Mogul NatOnline 670 posts since
Oct 10, 2007
21. Re: Question About Linking Mar 25, 2008 10:07 AM
in response to: Biz Online
Yes the 301 is a thing to setup and avoid duplicates of your site for some search engines.
Click to view NatOnline's profile Mogul NatOnline 670 posts since
Oct 10, 2007
22. Re: Question About Linking Mar 25, 2008 10:17 AM
in response to: ezprint

I did not use services to submit to directories, even if I have spent a lot of time doing that a few years ago, all the submissions were made manually. I really don't like someone choosing the directories for me as it was very important, and most services do that automatically anyway. Doing your own work will give you better control over the submission process.
Click to view ezprint's profile Mogul ezprint 20 posts since
Mar 21, 2008
23. Re: Question About Linking Mar 25, 2008 10:23 AM
in response to: NatOnline

The directory services I was referring to are manual submissions and cover PR 2 to PR 8 directories.
Technically it would be the same as if you had submitted yourself.

They usually cover everything from dmoz to the smaller directories.
But if you like doing that yourself , thats great.
Click to view NatOnline's profile Mogul NatOnline 670 posts since
Oct 10, 2007
24. Re: Question About Linking Mar 25, 2008 4:06 PM
in response to: ezprint
Submissions to directories are fun for first hundreds. I did not save my time, but saved every cents I can for my business which allowed me to pay the review of high traffic directories.

I am not a fan of PR, and beleive it or not I had some little directories ranking my site well for some keywords before Google hit this industry. Now they are just good for BL.
Click to view ezprint's profile Mogul ezprint 20 posts since
Mar 21, 2008
25. Re: Question About Linking Mar 25, 2008 4:47 PM
in response to: NatOnline

The reason some of those manual submissions are good is because they already have accounts created and they take your information , keywords etc, and use those to submit through accounts they have set up. This saves you from having to track fill out the info, and then open all the emails and respond to activate. Many of them allow you to submit your own list of directories if you want.

It saved our company money because submissions is such a tedious task you have to pull your SEOs or programmers off things they could be doing and pay them their wage to submit and get brain numb doing it . lol

The manual submission services take average of 10 days to complete the task. for $250 to $299 that's a really good deal in my opinion.

But if you prefer doing it by hand, did you know there are manual submission programs to help you at leats speed up the process of entering in your information? When submitting to directories people usually have a notepad or wordpad open with their URL, keywords, description of site ,meta description etc. So they have some decent free programs out on the Internet that will store that information and when you include your directory list. It will go to each directory, and look for the form fields and plug in your info. They're decent, speeds it up, but they have about a 30% 'buggy' ineffective rate where you have to enter the fields manual typing.
Click to view NatOnline's profile Mogul NatOnline 670 posts since
Oct 10, 2007
26. Re: Question About Linking Mar 25, 2008 8:59 PM
in response to: ezprint
I did have my brain numb doing it that's for sure lol

I really don't submit a lot these days to directories ;-)
Click to view movingup2's profile Start-up movingup2 1 posts since
Mar 25, 2008
27. Re: Question About Linking Mar 25, 2008 7:23 PM
in response to: designer
Finally:
Someone explains this issue plain and simple. Thankkkksssss!
Click to view intechspecial's profile Mogul intechspecial 1,457 posts since
Jan 6, 2008
28. Re: Question About Linking Apr 1, 2008 6:12 PM
You might want to research "White Hat" and "Black Hat" techniques before you go to much farther.

"White Hat" techniques are acceptable practices for Search Engine Optimization(SEO).
"Black Hat" techniques are NOT acceptable, and will get you banned from being listed in a search engine.

Stay away from ALL BLACK HAT techniques. Search enignes expect that you understand what is right and wrong, and will ban you from being indexed even if you mistakinly used a Black Hat technique.

I hope this helps.

inTechSpecial

Click to view ezprint's profile Mogul ezprint 20 posts since
Mar 21, 2008
29. Re: Question About Linking Apr 2, 2008 3:02 PM
in response to: intechspecial
Search engines will suspect a 'Black Hat' ..when they assume somebody has made a website as if overnight and then has made a strategy to get as many links as fast as possible with the intention to possibly sell some bogus product or service..and then disappear off the Internet.

Those types of con sites were happening a lot more than 6 years ago so Google created a strategy against that.

Google wants to see domain names and websites at least 1 year old before they begin aquiring mass links and activity. This supposedly allows them to believe that your site is more believable in its aquiring activity and links. So they do put first year sites in something many call the Sandbox.

Its possible that if you aquire 5,000 links in first year that your site could be reviewed or banned.

But that's where the stipulation comes in.. if you do SEO (search engine optimization) you would've realized that some websites pop up, and then maybe they get real world news coverage, maybe they have done a video or a product ..something that gets them on the national news.
Those sites suddenly get mass links, and mass traffic. The search engines haven't explained how they filter those yet..but those sites dont usually get banned. If anything, its better to assume that the search engines have publicized a standard that seems very strict , perhaps to keep all websites on their toes. The line between BlackHat and WhiteHat has become blurred in many ways. Usually though if your site takes part in site hijacking, link farmings, and blog teams..thats considered BlackHat. Many peoples dont even realize what true BlackHat would look like , if they're not exceptionally computer savy. That is what can make things skewed.

For an easy example , consider many of those SEO companies. You pay them and they evaluate your site , its keyword density, and then they'll do whatever their 'secret' is to help move your site up in the search engines and Internet exposure.

Many would assume = "oh OK, thats nice" You might pay them a lot of money assuming they're doing something real deep in computer world , but you'd assume it legal. But consider another factor the search engines are just now starting to confront as their next BlackHat targets in the battle to tr yto make search engines relevant. The fact that many of those 'SEO companies' ..are just large networks of peoples, some of them from foreign countries like India where they work real cheap.

Here's what those guys do..
Imagine their SEO company has 1,000 peoples..they dont work in any building, they're scattered out around the world perhaps..but they all 'work for' a company. They all have accounts at every popular social blogger site, forum, etc. Have you noticed that many sites now will rate 'best of' by how many votes the public gives? Look at Dig.com and YouTube.com as a few. Now imagine those 1,000 people with accounts on all the popular sites.
They all vote for your site, but they talk about it in a way that appears as if there's no connection between the peoples. Your site may get moved to front page for being the most popular that day or week. Your site is then sitting on a page that has a extremely high PageRank and not to mention millions of people go through those sites everyday ,and they're definitely going to see your site featured on the front page. There's your traffic and spike in sudden popularity. You look at your stats..and wow, you've jumped fro ma few visitors a day to tens of thousands. That SEO company must REALLY know what they're doing you might say? If you want to keep the traffic and the popularity..you must continue to hire their services..but guess what? That's considered extreme BlackHat..if they were to get busted..your site gets banned and all the sites they're hovering.

The search engine companies are still trying to create paths into the Internet to try to create a credible systems for scoring / measuring websites. If they can't do that they obviously wouldn't have jobs or investors anymore ..so they're tyrin to like heck to do it. In the mean time there are tens of millions of webmasters, SEO's , and SEO 'companies' ..that are out there everyday probing the systems and trying to crack search engines ..for the same reasons..its big money to them. If you can take a website for a high end million dollar company and get it placed into the first page of search engines they'll pay a lot of money for it. The next time you're surfing around the Internet, try to see it through 'SEO' perspective.. ask yourself who is really on those popular sites for legitimate purposes, and which are perhaps just large teams of people getting as much exposure for sites they're being paid to promote? If you have been into forums on the Internet you've probably noticed that when you make a post , you'll get a ton of single sentence, responses ..many of them not even in full sentence form. It's because those peoples have a link under their name as their forum 'signature' and it creates a link back to their site on every forum page they post to.

So peoples that just want to play fair and get their sites listed high.. be aware that 'highly competitive keywords' are being crawled over like ants by all those companies and SEOs etc..because thats where the big money is at for them right now. If you have to use those types of keywords, make sure you make articles , tons of them.. get people writing one or more a day at least filled with unique ways of naming your keywords. This creates 'long tail phrases' . Imagine if widgets was your keyword for what youre tyring to sell and if you could barely stay on the 3rd page of Google let alone the first page.. in your articles ifyou had written about "Widgets in California" "Widgets in Nevada" etc .. along with "Color Widgets" and "Custom Widgets" etc.
what happens is, you become more of an authority of those long tail key phrases. When people type "Widgets" into Google..those other sites pop up, but theres still search traffic for people that type specifically = "Widgets in California" etc.

That's what search engines want anyway, they want to break down the mass bulk into specific targeted areas ..that will keep peoples basically hogging up the keywords and deterring others from the Internet. Then they will use their adwords so that you can pay for ads in your target zone , while also trying to make your site relevant and an 'authority' ..by adding tons and tons of content. The search engines would obviously like to see it where all SEO teams are replaced by content writers. Then you'll hire people to write about your company, products etc ..instead of trying to hype your site on popularity websites. Ever wonder why companies make those free sites like MySpace and YouTube and Dig etc ? Those sites end up getting PageRanks of 8 and 9's .. millions of people linked and interlinked to them, and the sites become Popularity wells. They're perhaps the search engines biggest threat right now. Since those sites want the high PR rankings and they make their sites so that public gets to vote. Those vote systems can be exploited, the sites wouldnt really care so long as they have high PR. That PR gets first pages in Google and other search engines. It'll be interesting to see as search engines perhaps start canceling those sites credibility factors. The Internet is the wild west but its slowly being domesticated as the search engines keep sending in more and more Sheriffs into virtual town. Problem is though, the bandits and outlaws keep finding ways to hijack them gold trains so far.. In the mean time if you're a townsfolk that dont want to get involved in all that but yet you want your site store to show up in existence of search engines... do the articles, long tail phrases, get listed in directories lots of them after your site is over 1 yr old .. do pay per click Adwords on Google, Yahoo, and MSN...and add new articles every week. 10 per week at least. and make sure to put them all in your sitemap.xml

The battles in the wild west wage on.. ever notice when you search for a new site name..you see most of them names are taken..but when you go to that site..its just as if a parked domain with lots of crap links? .. Those are sites that SEO and other companies bought up..they're either holding them so we cant get them..OR , they're letting them age...to get past that 1 yr point. (the older your site is..the more credibility its given by search engines.)
So what youre seeing ..is basically an SEO wine rack.. with all them domain names being aged and prepared for some actual big site.. at some point.
Unless the Google Sheriffs can stop it ..all them wine racks going to be gettin bootlegged like running moonshine by the outlaws.

One of our companies main keywords would be something like "brochures" ..we cant get our wagon through that territory without getting hijacked by bandits or stopped every 2 seconds by the Sheriff outposts.. but if you search "color large envelopes" and all kinds of long tail phrases , we get the wagon through to #1 placement. Its not as high of traffic as brochures would be.. but when you add up a whole lots of them long tail phrases.. it gets some of the townsfolk through to find our store sittin out there on the wild west Internet prarie

So good luck.. and dont say Dakota! lol
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