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30 Replies Last post: Nov 26, 2008 8:33 PM by intechspecial

Question About Linking

Mar 21, 2008 10:33 AM

Click to view intech's profile Authority intech 13 posts since
Mar 17, 2008
Can somebody who is an expert please summarize what the search engine "rules" are for linking? I have read a number of articles/blogs/websites that give conflicting information about this subject and would like to see if someone can make it simple for us.

Also, I understand that linking is the key to search engine rankings, so everybody seems to be into manipulating links. Links are supposed to be "natural," so everybody tries to manipulate links so they seem natural. Does this make any sense? It sort of like saying, "you win the prize if you tell a sincere story." So the key to winning the prize becomes faking sincerity the best. Doesn't this seem like a seriously flawed system?

I'll give you one easy example. From what I have read, it is a no-no to link from one site that you own to another site that you own. But, in reality, what could be more natural than trying to use one of your businesses to promote another one of your own businesses? I own a number of domains. Is it OK with Google if I forward those domains to my website? Or is this seen as trying to fool the search engines?
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Click to view LUCKIEST's profile SCORE LUCKIEST 7,935 posts since
Aug 6, 2007
1. Re: Question About Linking Mar 21, 2008 10:46 AM
A reciprocal link is a mutual link between two objects,
commonly between two websites to ensure mutual traffic. Example: Alice
and Bob have websites. If Bob's website links to Alice's website, and
Alice's website links to Bob's website, the websites are reciprocally
linked. Website owners often submit their sites to reciprocal link
exchange directories, in order to achieve higher rankings in the search
engines.
Reciprocal linking between websites is an important part of the search
engine optimization process because
Google uses link popularity
algorithms (defined as the number of links that led to a particular
page and the
anchor text of the link) to rank websites for relevancy.

LUCKIEST
Click to view designer's profile Mogul designer 329 posts since
Feb 28, 2008
2. Re: Question About Linking Mar 21, 2008 11:06 AM
Hello. I have a Links page on my web site that I think is pretty darn cool. Last night, I was sitting with my Webmaster and we were going through my Google page rankings. I had a 3 on my homepage which is low, but still good...although I have been as high as a 6 at times. Anyway, my Links page is not even a 1. My Links page, I feel is very interesting and I only showcase people and places that I know. Most of my Links are my customers and I like to feature them and promote what they do. Some of them link back to me but most do not. After 3 years, I just give up on the whole rankings thing and trying to rack my brain out trying to figure out the system. You know what...for me - - -"It is what it is". My customers that come to visit me, they either like it or they don't. Most of my customers that give my product a try end up eventually being in the VIP Club which is on my site as well. But, I love my Links page and I am just going to keep working hard. I hope you won't let the stats and numbers jump in your way of your dreams and the big picture of what you are accomplishing to do.
Click to view ezprint's profile Mogul ezprint 20 posts since
Mar 21, 2008
3. Re: Question About Linking Mar 21, 2008 12:05 PM
You can link to your own sites - but the 'rules' for not getting penalized are a little more detailed than if you link to your own sites or not.
All the rules were formed over the years from spammers and scammers actually using them in such excess that it directed the way Internet evolved.
I'll show you some rules , and reasons why these rules began.

Things not to do in your linking.

1. Double content (do your sites have duplicate pages or text - this is bad)

Reason 1: decade or so ago ,webmasters would mass duplicate pages to get bulk pages with a rank. If they had one page that ranked well, and had a lot of keywords, they would mass duplicate it. (mass duplicate into the thousands, tens of thousands ,millions perhaps by programs)

Reason 2: the Affiliate website craze of 8 years ago - Every business that wanted to sell, sell sell.. would create their main flagship website, and then duplicates with varying color themes, and have Internet users sign up and operate one of those sites. Problem with that was - there was millions of them , spam from those peoples trying to make their commission or affiliate cash didn't care about the integrity - and yet the main companies could try to deny responsibility for them.

2. Irrelevant content linking ( does your site have anything related, or to do with the site youre linked to? is it T-shirt prints and auto parts? because search engines are cracking down on spam and obvious attempts to boost PR (page rank) of your site through mass linking)

Reason: Website owners and online businesses all want to get high 'SERPS' (in short, this refers to your search engine placement. or where your site appears for any search term or keyword on search engines like Google)
In order to get high SERPS you needed as the saying goes "lots of backlinks!" But, once that was realized, everyone was linking to everyone else.
It turned into a mass interlinking, irrelevant bulk tangled linking mess of crap. But , they were getting high SERPS ,perhaps over 8 years ago .

3. Paid Links (a new one ) Search engines never used to care when webmasters would buy links from higher PR (pagerank) websites . The webmaster would buy a link, and the other site with higher popularity would place a link to them on their more popular site. (so in short the webmaster was renting a link to get higher popularity from a more popular site)
Google has waged war on this suddenly..and aome webmasters are in a frenzy as their PR 6 websites drop to PR 1.

advertising links are advertising links. and search engines know they could be getting that money if you advertised with their services. Also, since your popularity gained from link buying is fake, they dont like it because it undermines the integrity of popularity the search engines are trying to create.

all advertising links now will mostly have a rel="nofollow" in the hyperlink tags.
Search engines like Google dont ask or need to investigate if you are using a paid link , if they suspect it, if your site has no relevance to the other, they can just sock it in thre eye. lol

does that help ya with some idea about linking?
Click to view intech's profile Authority intech 13 posts since
Mar 17, 2008
4. Re: Question About Linking Mar 21, 2008 12:56 PM
in response to: designer
I gave up on trying to get high in the organic rankings a long time ago. I just pay for clicks (Google Adwords, etc.). It's a lot easier and probably cheaper in the long run.

I'm curious to know other people's opinions on the subject. It seems to me that there's a lot of sleaze associated with trying to trick the search engines.
Click to view intech's profile Authority intech 13 posts since
Mar 17, 2008
5. Re: Question About Linking Mar 21, 2008 12:33 PM
in response to: ezprint
ezprint,

What you say confirms my opinion of the whole SEO/linking business. It gets more and more complicated and convoluted every day because so many "bad apples" have tried to manipulate it. Few people can actually keep up with it. Google and the others change the rules to stay ahead of the scammers, but the scammers seem to be quicker at adapting to the changes than the honest people. For example, I now see SEO websites that offer to write articles with a link to your website, and post them on blogs. It supposedly gives the appearance of someone writing a real article and just, by the way, here's a good website to go to. How is Google going to react to that kind of trickery?
Click to view Lighthouse24's profile Mogul Lighthouse24 2,396 posts since
Oct 10, 2007
6. Re: Question About Linking Mar 21, 2008 5:28 PM

As already indicated by ezprint, you find a lot of conflicting information about linking "rules" because a lot of the information you find on-line is just OLD (out-of-date).

Another problem, as you suggested, is that the SEO experts who blog about the "rules" have their own agendas sometimes. For example, the average company spends between 8 and 9 percent of its advertising budget on Internet marketing strategies (Sources: AdWeek, Booz Allen Hamilton, Interactive Advertising Bureau). Consequently most businesses design their sites to make it easier for a serious customer to commit to the buying decision -- and they rely on other techniques to bring the customer in. Yet entrepreneurs who go into business without a marketing plan often try to use the Internet as their main (or only) method of attracting customers. Some SEO specialists feed on that like sharks, and actually do what I'd consider SES (search engine +sub+-optimization -- i.e., maximizing one component of the search algorithm, as they understand it, to manipulate/produce an allegedly desirable result that may or may not actually increase profits or help the business in the long term).
Click to view NatOnline's profile Mogul NatOnline 670 posts since
Oct 10, 2007
7. Re: Question About Linking Mar 22, 2008 4:05 AM
in response to: ezprint
Intech, I think ezprint said it right about links. I will add one more thing to his comments.

It is very hard to rank high, particularly these days with an e-commerce. Some unethical SEO (web ring) people are now targetting legetimate websites as their own sites are rejected more and more by search engines algorithm. Their unfair techniques are using badware on your pages, or scrap, redirect your entire site for ranking gain (cybersquatting). Unfortunately another game start and can cost you a lot of money or you can take legal action and go after them with no guarantees.

The best protection you can have on your site is a trademark.

Cybersquatting is a crime, here some information:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c10
6:S.1255.IS
http://tcattorney.typepad.com/anticybersq
uatting_consum/anticybersquatting_consumer
_protection_act/index.html
Click to view ezprint's profile Mogul ezprint 20 posts since
Mar 21, 2008
8. Re: Question About Linking Mar 24, 2008 9:24 AM
in response to: NatOnline
The redirects are probably one of the worst. Take an occasional look at the URL address bar - make sure it isn't some link other than the one it is supposed to have. When your site is hijacked through redirects though, it makes the hijacker obvious , at least from the site that is hijacking it. I think that might be one of the reasons many scammers have created the whole new Phishing scheme.

Phishing is where they will make an identical website of a popular commerce or other type of site that requires personal information. I remember about 6 years ago PayPal was sending out letters about it. Also, a webhost service I was using about 7 years ago sent an alert letter to inform of phisphing concerns. There was also another email in my inbox at the time - it showed that it was from my webhost (it appeared - except for maybe a sublte change of letter , an i (I) ..changed to an l (L ) maybe.

The email claimed that I would have to sign-in and enter my personal info and address etc again. Since their site was doing a check after an attempted hacker may have compromized their database. So they wanted to double check everyones information.
The problem was, the webhost wasn't the one sending the letters.

After that day, it stuck in my mind how easily I might've used that "click here to update info" link and unknowingly have done that if it hadn't been for the alert email the webhost had sent. From that day on, I wont ever use a link that is in an email. If a website sends a link and requires that I sign-in etc, I'll go to the site manually by opening the browser, putting in the URL.

Some might consider it paranoid to never click links inside emails lol , but .. that one day made me realize ..wow! I would've fallen for that and never known.
Click to view NatOnline's profile Mogul NatOnline 670 posts since
Oct 10, 2007
9. Re: Question About Linking Mar 24, 2008 10:46 AM
in response to: ezprint
You are right, redirect could affect your site/business. You can even rank lower than the scraper/highjacker. These issues need to be taking care seriously, because you can lost your ranking or in the worst case scenario loose your business, the search engines can considered, that you are not the original, etc...

No this is not a paranoid, you need to becareful when someone send you an email, even if there are no links.

There are many things behind the scene. Ecommerce are targeted by spamers, highjackers, hackers, copyrights infringement, trademark infringement, suspects bots and crawler, etc...We need to live with that and protect our business, particularely when a site rank high everywhere you are more an more targeted by those.

Back to the subject, I found a very nice tool to check the bad neighborhood at http://www.bad-neighborhood.com/text-link
-tool.htm that give an idea about the site or pages with links.

I am using more and more the no follow tag, because you can link today to a good reputable site, then tomorrow this link could be harmful to your site. So I decided when I am linking to a site to use a no follow tag to avoid any problems.
Click to view intech's profile Authority intech 13 posts since
Mar 17, 2008
10. Re: Question About Linking Mar 24, 2008 11:14 AM
in response to: NatOnline
Of course, if everybody uses the "no follow" tag, the basic search engine method for ranking sites comes crashing down, doesn't it?
Click to view ezprint's profile Mogul ezprint 20 posts since
Mar 21, 2008
11. Re: Question About Linking Mar 24, 2008 11:45 AM
in response to: intech
rel="nofollow" is good for links that are advertisement links.
Since search engines like Google are penalizing fraud PR (pagerank) hyping, they may be using a relevance strategy to check for the relevance and placement of links.

If you want to link to a site from your website without it counting as a 'vote' from your site, you should use the rel="nofollow"
a working example <a href=http://wwvv.sample_site.com" rel="nofollow">

Search engines count all links to other websites as a vote from your site. To find the score of a websites page, they look to see how many other websites are 'voting' for it with a link. They then check the score and relevance of the pages/sites that are voting for your site.
Because of this, many websites with a high PR score were renting links to other websites. (i.e. = "if you pay their website an agreed amount of money per month, they will put a link on their website as a 'vote' for your site. )

But it became obvious to search engines that those link rentals were screwing up the validity and credibility of their rankings systems. The search engines dont want to become irrelevant and a thing of the past, so they must try to remain credible. as a result of the link rentals, search engines have started to try to crack down on all link rentals - and they're doing it by automation and manual reviews.

Google posted a warning to webmasters to alert them to add rel="nofollow" tags to all their paid links ..or to face the consequences.

Hopefully in the long run this will work out for legitimate websites - but the process of how accurate the search engines will be in cracking down on this ,is still pretty much being debated.

The easiest way to remember it , is to realize that any links on your site are counted as a 'vote' for another websites score.
If those sites are irrelevant to your site , you may consider including the rel="nofollow" as rel="nofollow" allows you to link to another site, but ..its telling the search engines= "hey , wait a minute..this is just a friend or a site that I like, so this is not a vote and do not include it into your voting score system. "

The search engines will not consider any rel="nofollows" as votes, and as a result it should take any responsibility or credibility issues off your site for linking to them. Otherwise, if the search engines have a problem with your site's vote.. they may reduce your sites credibility by saying = "this site A voted for site B ..but site B has no relevance, its spammy, and it emails people way too much. so if site B is 'bad' ..then site A must share responsibility for trying to vote for them and trying to give threm credibility.

I suspect that these new methods and 'rules' are trying to make site owners more aware of how and who they link to. It will cause site owners to investigate other websites as opposed to just throwing them a link.
Click to view Biz Online's profile Mogul Biz Online 71 posts since
Oct 10, 2007
12. Re: Question About Linking Mar 24, 2008 3:00 PM
Intech,
I'm an expert in this area, and yes, there is a lot of conflicting information out there.

I highly recommend reading this article over at Aaron Wall's SEO Book site:

101 Link Building Tips
http://www.seobook.com/archives/001792.shtml
If this can't help you, then I don't know what will.

There are many types of links, reciprocal being just one of them.

As far as linking your own site(s) together, just make sure they are on different servers in different locations, as the sites will be recognized to be on the same server if not done. Also, staying within the same or close to the same vertical, or topic area, improves the links. If you have a site about food, another about restaurants, linking these two would be close to the same vertical topic. Now, I usually don't recommend putting a link on every page (I change this up every 90 to 120 days, and use a different blend of keywords, not the same rubber stamp on each page) from one of your sites to another site, but it is free now, isn't it? I do this on one of my sites, and it is quite effective for Yahoo and MSN.

Going about getting links has many strategies. Reciprocal links are easy, but keep in mind to get links from the same vertical or topic area is important. Getting a link from a Motorcycle website that links to a Food website passes very little link value. Get it?

Directory links are still important; Yahoo directory being one of the strongest, then others like BOTW (bestoftheweb.org), which are directories that have an editorial / approval process. Search engines still respect authority directories that have a review process, although the value is not as good as it was 5 years ago. :)

Press release links and article links: Doing press releases and having good anchor text does work well. Also, writing articles and having your link in the biography of the article works, if submitted to the right websites. Lot's of article sites don't allow links, so choose wisely. :)

Contribute to blogs and communities that allow links. But don't spam blogs with comments and your link in your name. :(

Enjoy reading the link I sent above; this will really open your eyes.
Cliff Koraska

Click to view NatOnline's profile Mogul NatOnline 670 posts since
Oct 10, 2007
13. Re: Question About Linking Mar 24, 2008 2:01 PM
in response to: intech
Yes, but think about it a second, Google started this game, and want us to go for their own advertising system which is manipulated. I tried before Adwords, and it wasn't succesful for me, then recieved hits from their system after I closed my Adwords account which confirmed manipulation. Anyway I prefer to rank in organic search, instead of any advertising way except quality directories.
Click to view NatOnline's profile Mogul NatOnline 670 posts since
Oct 10, 2007
14. Re: Question About Linking Mar 24, 2008 2:15 PM
in response to: ezprint

Like I said before, you can link to a relevant site, then discover later that his site contain web ring links. I don't have the time to check everyday the same links to insure correct neighbourhood and prefer to put a no follow tag.


As far as all rental links, I never use it, and never will. Before the Google new algorithms on directories, it was a nice way to get traffic, now traffic is none and only high directories are useful for backlinks. Everyday I am discovering my site in small directories made for adsenses and poor sites where I never submitted. Weird to see some webmasters scrapping all over the net like that.

I am not enthousiast for link swap, reciprocal 2 or 3 ways, and allow rarely links from other sites.

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