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30 Replies Last post: Mar 23, 2008 2:37 AM by TJMorehead

12 years in business, A1 credit but still get turned down expansion funds

Jan 16, 2008 7:26 PM

Click to view kmdguy's profile Professional kmdguy 7 posts since
Jan 16, 2008
Hi there,

I've run a small animation studio on my own for the last 12 years. We create animation and images for attorneys and architects. We're a small studio consisting of just my wife and I but we've done pretty well without ever having to finance anything from the start.

I'm interested in expanding my company this year by upgrading all of our computers to be extreme powerhouses, add more computers and expand our services into render farming (it's an animation thing). I need to do this in order to compete and produce our work quicker on tighter deadlines. Without it, we're sort of stuck at a glass ceiling that notches lower and lower.

Our annual sales have run between $80,000-$110,000. Both my wife and I have credit scores over 800. I've gone to 3 big, well-recognized banks that are SBA preferred lenders asking for a total of $50,000 for computers/software. We get turned down every time because they all say that no matter how good your credit is, how long I've been in business, they only loan businesses up to about 20% of their annual sales, maximum. Each time, they offer a line of credit for about $20,000 but I can't find any source that will provide a lending solution for what we need, despite the fact that we've been around for 12 years, have been profitable every year and have excellent credit.

I've never had trouble getting credit with the best rates at all in my life and so I'm a little deflated as to why this is. If I've been around for 12 years with excellent credit, a business plan and profitability and can't get $50K for computers, then how on earth to people get $100K or higher for new start ups that don't show ANY income yet?

I've talked with my SCORE counselor after the fact and asked him, "hey I thought this was the SBA loan programs were for, guys like me", and $50K seems like a small sum for an average business loan. He said to me, "ya banks work that way, it's tough."

So, has anyone out there in a similar situation experienced this and how did you overcome it? Or didn't you?

Best of luck all,
Dan
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Click to view LUCKIEST's profile SCORE LUCKIEST 5,723 posts since
Aug 6, 2007
1. Re: 12 years in business, A1 credit but still get turned down expansion funds Jan 16, 2008 7:38 PM
kmd, Welcome to this great site. You are going to get many good answers and also offers of credit.
Glad you talked with your SCORE counselor after the fact. The economy is going through changing times.
Hope SCORE told you about Business and Marketing Plans. Lenders or investors will want to see them.
Do you have an Accountant??
LUCKIEST
Click to view kmdguy's profile Professional kmdguy 7 posts since
Jan 16, 2008
2. Re: 12 years in business, A1 credit but still get turned down expansion funds Jan 16, 2008 7:53 PM
in response to: LUCKIEST
Hi Luckiest,

Yes I do indeed have an accountant, I couldn't live without him ;)

I do have a large HELOC I could draw from, but that wasn't the first thing I wanted to do at this point. Is my situation typical for banks & small businesses?

Best regards,
Dan
Click to view karaokekrazy's profile Professional karaokekrazy 7 posts since
Oct 18, 2007
3. Re: 12 years in business, A1 credit but still get turned down expansion funds Jan 16, 2008 7:54 PM
What financial instututions have you talked to? Bank Of America has been the number SBA lender for the longest time. You might want to check on some other types of loan aside from SBA. Give them a call at 8886004000.
Click to view kmdguy's profile Professional kmdguy 7 posts since
Jan 16, 2008
4. Re: 12 years in business, A1 credit but still get turned down expansion funds Jan 16, 2008 9:06 PM
in response to: karaokekrazy
Hi there,

I've checked with Washington Mutual (with whom my company has banked for years), they would only float me up to 16% of my gross annual revenue. I checked with Wells Fargo with whom I've done many no-doc mortgage packages for investment real estate over the years, despite that they've said they'll only do up to 20% of gross and then U.S. Bank with whom I have no previous banking relationship. Again, they're all happy to give me a $15K-$20K line of credit, but what I need is about $40K for computers/peripherals and $10K for some miscellaneous operating expenses.

When I first went into Wells they looked up my credit info, business info and within 15 minutes said, ya this shouldn't be a problem. After 4 days later they finally broke down and admitted there was nothing they could do for me in this instance except a small LOC. I thought to myself, $50K isn't a big amount of money really compared to what average business loan packages are so I figured this would be as easy as buying a new car.

I suppose I could check with BofA, but the message I'm getting is that despite credit and time in force, banks simply don't do business loans for more than X percent of annual gross. If BofA is any different then I'd like to know before I spend 4 days haggling through the process only to get turned down again. Anyone from BofA here with solid knowledge of this?

Thanks all!
Dan
Click to view CEO Space's profile Mogul CEO Space 265 posts since
Jan 13, 2008
5. Re: 12 years in business, A1 credit but still get turned down expansion funds Jan 16, 2008 8:15 PM
Yes, I experienced this years ago in my beginning business stages. And as I've gone on and had other businesses myself and consulted businesses with a similar problem I've found that it is much easier to raise large sums of money that it is to raise small sums.

There are many reasons for that, and I won't go into it because it doesn't solve your problem.

Our network (CEO Space) has funded over $8 billion in just 2007 so check into it plus it has other benefits for you as a business owner.

Of course, knowing what I know and having seen what our network has done, it is my main recommendation, but since I understand that it isn't for everyone I would also suggest some of the other funding sources in this forum Triumph and conscorp.

Also check into www.prosper.com

If you have any accounts receivables that you could factor, that is a possibility too.

Good luck.
Click to view eddie518's profile Professional eddie518 9 posts since
Nov 27, 2007
6. Re: 12 years in business, A1 credit but still get turned down expansion funds Jan 17, 2008 7:22 AM

im going thru the exact same thing 771 fico and every one says " oh just go SBA" well ive been to 9 big banks i walk in with everything: business plan, projections, resume, etc.. Five days later here comes the denial pitch. I then say what is SBA???????????????? We have internal policies that that wont allow us to proceed.Well I found a solution that has helped me email me at eddieashelton@gmail.com. I will lead you where you can get the money. It seems to me everyone gives advice but no one tells where to get the money. I will tell you. You dont want to keep applying for credit because then you give the banks a easy reason for denial " too many recent inquiies"
Click to view DomainDiva's profile Mogul DomainDiva 1,253 posts since
Oct 10, 2007
7. Re: 12 years in business, A1 credit but still get turned down expansion funds Jan 17, 2008 8:59 AM
This may not solve all of nyour problems but got to Best Buy. They have a BBY for Business and the larger stores will have a BBYFB consultant on site.

You can open a credit account 2 years at no interest. They have tons of special order stuff thats not stocked in their stores (for obvious reasons). You will probably be able to get about half maybe more of the equipment you are looking for. Its what I did when I had to buy stuff for my team. I had no choices at all and this solved my problem.

ALSO...call Citibank, they are doing 12 months no interst on new business accounts. That would probably cover the remaining costs.

These days banks and credit are slow...small business people have to create their own financing!
Click to view LUCKIEST's profile SCORE LUCKIEST 5,723 posts since
Aug 6, 2007
8. Re: 12 years in business, A1 credit but still get turned down expansion funds Jan 17, 2008 7:47 AM
I am a SCORE Counsel and we are see this a lot. The banks are clamping down. It all has to do with Real Estate
and losses the banks are taking.
I am not a banker, BUT banks are in business to make money. They do not want your fixed assets, your
inventory, or your real estate. We all know, they want to get paid back.
So they are making it tougher.
SCORE is FREE, can help with Business Plans and in many cases talk to the right person at local banks
LUCKIEST
Click to view BOAcustomer's profile Start-up BOAcustomer 1 posts since
Jan 17, 2008
9. Re: 12 years in business, A1 credit but still get turned down expansion funds Jan 17, 2008 1:37 PM
Dan,

I wasn't clear on whether this investment in hardware will improve your sales/income or just keep it from falling. A good investment should give you "significant" return (fill in your own target number) by allowing you to pull in more customers, hire more people, or do more work in less time.

If you're just trying to stay competitive and this won't increase sales, then the $50K is lopping off 45%-63% of one year's income. Even with zero interest and spreading the payments over 5 years (a very long time for computer hardware) you're paying out 9%-13% of your income. It doesn't sound like a wise move for you, much less for the bank.

That's enough numbers. Banks are in the business of making money and managing risk. In this case, they're looking for assurances that you can pay the money back out of regular cash flow because they don't want the hardware and they don't want your house. If you don't have a plan that shows how they get their money back (and you get even more), then you need to create one or come up with a different plan.

Don't underestimate the value of tapping your home equity loan or any other lines of credit at your disposal. Do the math and decide whether it's a good return for you. Honestly, if you don't believe you're a good credit risk why would anyone else? Other good sources of funds, especially for entrepreneurs, are family, friends, and customers. Offer them investment opportunities.

Good luck.
Click to view kmdguy's profile Professional kmdguy 7 posts since
Jan 16, 2008
10. Re: 12 years in business, A1 credit but still get turned down expansion funds Jan 17, 2008 3:05 PM
in response to: BOAcustomer
<<I wasn't clear on whether this investment in hardware will improve your sales/income or just keep it from falling. A good investment should give you "significant" return (fill in your own target number) by allowing you to pull in more customers, hire more people, or do more work in less time. >>

Hi there, thanks for your reply. Ya, the investment in computer hardware would actually increase our bottom line by at least $4,000/month to considerably higher by allowing us to work with more clients, perform quicker and lease out the CPU power when it happens to be idle. Depending on the legal projects we could score, our bottom line could increase by as much as $10K/month. We can continue to "maintain" where we are without it, but we just can't grow anymore really without an investment in sheer horsepower at our disposal and the software to drive that horsepower.
Click to view moogrdotcom's profile Mogul moogrdotcom 82 posts since
Dec 16, 2007
11. Re: 12 years in business, A1 credit but still get turned down expansion funds Jan 17, 2008 5:39 PM

What is your business legal structure? Are you sole proprietor?

If your sole proprietor then apply for credit cards on your own merit and expand the business in stages. Get the new PCs and part of the software you need and then expand as you sell out those services.

If you're an LLC/Corporation then work on building corporate credit. Start small with Staples/Office Depot and some net 30's and then build up to business cards such as Citi Platinum Plus, Chase and American Express and work from there.

Banking 50k is expensive for computers, Dell usually hands out leases and loans (backed by Citi) on PC equipment like Candy. Have you considered leasing the hardware, writing it off and purchasing or even leasing the software and figuring the lease into your pricing as cost of doing business? PC/Technology equipment plumets in value - much faster than you could pay 50k loan.
Click to view moogrdotcom's profile Mogul moogrdotcom 82 posts since
Dec 16, 2007
12. Re: 12 years in business, A1 credit but still get turned down expansion funds Jan 17, 2008 5:37 PM

What is your business legal structure? Are you sole proprietor?

If your sole proprietor then apply for credit cards on your own merit and expand the business in stages. Get the new PCs and part of the software you need and then expand as you sell out those services.

If you're an LLC/Corporation then work on building corporate credit. Start small with S t a p l e s/O f f i c e Depot and some net 30's and then build up to business cards such as C i t i P l a t i n u m Plus, C h a s e and A m e r i c a n E x p r e s s and work from there.

Banking 50k is expensive for computers, D e l l usually hands out leases and loans (backed by C i t i) on PC equipment like Candy. Have you considered leasing the hardware, writing it off and purchasing or even leasing the software and figuring the lease into your pricing as cost of doing business? PC/Technology equipment plumets in value - much faster than you could pay 50k loan.
Click to view kmdguy's profile Professional kmdguy 7 posts since
Jan 16, 2008
13. Re: 12 years in business, A1 credit but still get turned down expansion funds Jan 17, 2008 5:58 PM
in response to: moogrdotcom

Hi there,

I'm an S-Corp for 15 years and have quite a bit of business credit established. I have a gold AMEX (member since 1995) and an account with Dell which has an open balance but the ceiling is only $10K. I'd need close to $25K with what I need from them. I'll talk to my IT rep there and see about bumping that up and leasing the gear from them.

Over the years I've used my credit carefully, which is why I probably have an 800+ FICO. One thing I'm trying to avoid is to get $10K of credit here, $10K there, another $10K over there and pretty soon have all these expensive LOCs all over the place. My hope was to be able to obtain an easy to manage, lump sum loan by which I can then manage all my purchases (hardware, software and misc.) from one payment source. It seems to me that it would be cheaper that way than getting many expensive lines of credit set up all over the place. Does that make sense?

Thanks,
Dan
Click to view mlebovits's profile Mogul mlebovits 39 posts since
Oct 10, 2007
14. Re: 12 years in business, A1 credit but still get turned down expansion funds Jan 17, 2008 7:04 PM
Have you looked into leasing the equipment.

There are one page, application only programs that can easily finance the dollar amount you seek. Approval can be obtained in approximately 24 hours. If your credit scores are as high as you claim, it sounds doable.

Would be happy to assist.

Marshall Lebovits
www.Funding911.com
310-371-4011
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